Christian: Hello, Stephen!

Stephen: Hi, Christian, hi, Michael! How are we?

Michael: Pretty good. Hey, Stephen - good to see you! Hi, Christiano!

Christian: Hi! How are we really today? Hello Stephen, good to see you.

Christian: So, who are you and what do you do?

Stephen: My name is Stephen, I'm from Dublin in Ireland which is the center of the known universe. I'm lucky enough to know you two guys through EO Ireland.

Stephen: So, I'm one of the founding members of EO Ireland and I'm the current chapter president. My business for many years was in the English language industry. So, we had an English language school in Dublin where we taught international students from over 50 countries around the world how to improve their international communication skills.

Stephen: My last day in that business was the same day as Covid was announced. So, I've been called everything from an evil genius to stuff that's far less complimentary since I exited that business. And currently, the business I run is all about personality profiling, doing career guidance for individuals, doing selection for companies and helping people and get onto the right track for them.

Christian: Congratulations first, for selling your business.

Stephen: It was a long hard road, thank you.

Christian: We know, or, Michael? Yes, so that sounds like you just started a new business the day after Covid hit. Or how did that work?

Stephen: No, so I've grown up in family businesses. My whole life has been about being involved in family businesses. The language school I bought from my parents probably 12 years ago now and then this other business, which is a much smaller business I bought 4/5 years ago.

Stephen: I took a year out and lived in Spain and that's when I decided, I spent a lot of time and figuring out that I wanted to sell one business and take over the other business.

Stephen: So, the personality profiling business has been around for a bit longer than the language school business. But now it feeds a different part of my wine and really fulfills me in a different way now that I probably wouldn't have been able to enjoy in my 20s and 30s, because it didn't have the same level of travel and meeting new people.

Stephen: Whereas now it really fills a more individualistic part of what I want to do in my life.

Christian: So, what's your "Why"? Would you like to share it?

Stephen: Absolutely. 5 years ago, my wife and I went to live in Spain for a year, my wife is Spanish. And that was something we always said we wanted to do. When we have kids, we want them to understand both sides of the culture.

Stephen: She is a teacher. In Ireland she was able to take a career break for a year and I had 2 years of run-up to be able to run the business remotely and put a lot of things in place. So I ran the language school from Spain.

Stephen: And while I was there, I had a lot of free time because I had no interruptions from phone calls and people coming and the normal physical office. When people are in the office and you get distracted and pulled in different directions. And it was a really interesting experience.

Stephen: And that's when I spent a lot of time working on the Simon Sinek stuff, from going through the start with "Why" and going through all of these things.

And I have a couple of the EO mentors, and I would work through some of these ideas with them. There were a couple of iterations, but I ended up with 2 words which encompass my wife, which is: Aspire and empower.

So, I want to spend all of my time helping people to aspire to a better life and a better career and then empower them to get there. And that's all I wanted to. So, when I look at my myriad - because we're all entrepreneurs: We see something and we go "I can do better than that."

Christian: Shiny object syndrome.

Stephen: And it's just insane. So, when I look at it through the lens of aspire and empower, it's very clear. I have a real short list of things now that I want to do, and I want to work on and that's what I want to spend my time and energy on.

Christian: Thank you very much, Stephen. So, you said you already led a company remotely, pre Covid.

Christian: What were your thoughts when all the others were fussing around remote leadership and doing home office?

Stephen: Funny enough: So, most of my experience in EO, for example, is the staff teams and the membership teams, they're all over the world so you don't get to meet on a regular basis in person. Maybe once a year, maybe twice a year if you're lucky and you meet at different events.

Stephen: So, I had a bit of experience of spending time on Zoom calls before everybody was on Zoom calls and spending time getting to know really what you need to do to make it a bit more personal. Just spend a bit of time before meeting, little bit of small talk. Not just ticking a box to go "Okay, we've built report, now move on to the next thing." So, I had a little experience with that.

Stephen: The other part, when I was living in Spain, I was the remote person, and I was the leader of the organization. Everybody else was still physically in the building together. Because we had classes in person in Dublin. So, the teachers were there, the students had come. It would've been very hard to sell the idea to students to come from Germany to Dublin and your teacher is going to be remote living in Germany, so it's not going to work.

Stephen: So, everybody had to physically be in the building. But I was away. So, I had to build ways. That's when we really went in on Google Docs, for example, instead of using the old server-based system that we had in the school for a long time.

Stephen: I had to make sure that I had access to all of the documentation, VPNs and everything else which was pretty common but not very common in our industry. And then having these weekly meetings and having schedule weekly meetings, because we sell blocks of a week.

Stephen: So, I have one-to-one meetings everyday with different people at different times more ad hoc. But there was one day a week on Wednesday, at 12 o'clock - 1 o'clock, Spanish time - and that was the scheduled meeting.

Stephen: So, we were halfway through the week when we had students because we sold blocks of a week to students rather than days or months. So we said mid-week "If something is going wrong, we have time to correct it" or if there is something that we need to be aware before the end of the week, it's also Monday and Friday with the two craziest days with the intake and the outtakes.

Stephen: So, Wednesday was the best day that we decided we would do this.

Michael: But let me just make sure I understand this correctly. What you're describing now, Stephen: This is pre Covid, yeah?

Stephen: Yes.

Michael: So, you were working remotely out of Spain, running a company in Dublin that had students come into your school/academy - whatever you call it.

Stephen: "The best English language school in the world" is what I called it.

Michael: Oh I love the sound of that. I know these guys who are building the number 1 Leadership Academy on earth.

Stephen: I've heard of these guys, yeah.

Michael: Yeah. So, students are coming physically into a building and the other teams there and you're sitting there all remotely?

Stephen: Yes.

Michael: And how did that work for you and how did it work for your team and for students? So, what was the learning out of that before we come to what happened after Corona hit?

Stephen: So, I used to travel quite a bit for work anyway. I would spend about a week a month out of the country anyway, trying to find students, going to marketing and networking events and going to these different promotional events.

Stephen: So, I had built it in a way that I didn't interact with the students on a daily basis anyway because I wasn't always there. So, if somebody came for a week, they might not meet me. If somebody came for six months, yeah, they'd meet me loads of times and be in the cantine and everything else.

Stephen: The students didn't notice that I was gone. With the team, we already had WhatsApp groups, we had emails, we had a Zoom.

Stephen: So, I came across Zoom through EO. And that's when I instilled in the company because people were using Skype and Skype just wasn't that reliable, especially for group conversations. And it used to be extraordinarily expensive on the phone, ringing back from Japan for an update at 2 o'clock in the morning and they're going "Oh, something is wrong".

Stephen: Putting those things in place made the communication much easier. Some of it synchronous, some of it was asynchronous. Some of it was just a recorded message or a quick video and sent because I might have been or somebody might have been in a completely different time zone so you don't want to wake them up and then screw up their day.

But for the team: Because we had fairly clear objectives, we knew the framework for the teaching. We knew the framework that we wanted. We had a 12-week-plan in the school for every class that repeated every 12 weeks. So, we had a system in place that didn't require daily input.

But for the team: We had this system that kind of ticked over and people knew their role in their cog in each part.

But for the team: But just as you said, so, I used to have these schedules. When I lived in Spain when I was remote in Spain, I had weekly meetings because we sold a week. And it was a different thing. It was more of a leadership touchpoint - a formal touchpoint as well - as well as the informal stuff.

But for the team: Since Covid in this team, it is a much smaller team, but we had daily huddles every day at 10 o'clock.

But for the team: That's more so for their well-being as a personal touchpoint to make sure that everybody is still talking. Because some people are living alone, some people have family who are older. Some people are not living in their own country.

But for the team: So, a lot of it really was a mental health touchpoint as well to see how everyone was doing. And if I could pick up on something then I would have another call with that person and and check in with them, see how they're doing.

But for the team: Not much you can do. You can't go give them hug or you can't go have a beer with them, but at least you're checking up on them and they know there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

But for the team: And as the leader, especially in a Covid scenario, when everybody is kind of looking to you for some kind of reassurance. That's why we do the daily hurdles.

Michael: I'm curious. Can I ask you a question?

Christian: I'm on your podcast. I'm here to answer your questions.

Michael: Yeah, I know, but I want to check because now that you sold the greatest English language school in the world just before Covid happened?

Michael: Did you follow what happened when Covid struck and what happened then and how did the business deal with that? And how did they deal with the remote situation that was put on them?

Stephen: Yes, so, because of a lot of our experience with remote working, we had been spending about 2 years or 3 years building in online learning as a core part of our framework using.

Stephen: So, we were using Google Classroom in the physical classroom. So, all of our teachers knew how to do this, and people were already getting notes and resources and everything if they were sacked or if they were out.

Stephen: So, when the government shut down all the schools in Ireland and said "You have to teach remote", in all of the British Isles - and I say this with a certain sense of pride because I was involved much earlier. But I genuinely believe that of all of the schools in the British Isles, the UK, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, we were probably the number one school that just switched over. They, not "We" anymore, like 4 months after I left.

Stephen: But the team that was there were able to switch over and it was seamless. And the students had classes, the teachers were used to being on camera, they were used to having microphones. Some more than others from what I imagine. Some of the teachers adapted to it much quicker.

Stephen: But they didn’t (unint.) with the online stuff.

They didn't maximize it to what I think that the language school could have maximized it to. They weren't then selling international and go:

They didn't maximize it to what I think that the language school could have maximized it to. They weren't then selling international and go: "Well, okay, you're stuck in Brazil/You're stuck in Spain/You're stuck in Russia - Why not join our classes and learn English, so you're not wasting your time?"

They didn't maximize it to what I think that the language school could have maximized it to. They weren't then selling international and go: I felt that they probably could've done a lot more of that.

Michael: So, turn it more into an opportunity than just a situation to deal with?

Stephen: Yeah. Whereas I think the mindset for a lot of the language schools in Ireland was like "Okay, this is only going to be a couple months and then we're back to the normal. We don't have to invest in all this stuff."

Michael: That was a popular mindset around the world at that time.

Stephen: Yeah.

Christian: And it still is.

Stephen: Yeah, well at this stage, hopefully it will be finished in a couple of months’ time.

Michael: And there was something that I know that from the very beginning when our conversation started, and you mentioned that you do personality profiling.

What's your take on what type of personalities are dealing with the remote situation better than others? Or if I ask it the other way around:

What's your take on what type of personalities are dealing with the remote situation better than others? Or if I ask it the other way around: What do I need to accommodate for to suit for the different personality styles to make sure everybody has a chance to be happy in this remote led world?

Stephen: At the very beginning of this I saw a really funny meme, which was "Introverts, you've had a hard time over the last couple of years in offices, but please check in on your extrovert friends. They are not enjoying the Lockdown."

Michael: I love that.

Stephen: I think it varied. And I have been having this conversation a lot with people about how we as humans, how we've all changed.

Stephen: So, in the Republic of Ireland things are still kind of locked down. The indoor dining is not open, the pubs are not open if you don't have food. You can only be outdoors in Ireland. The weather is not just reliable enough to be constantly outside.

Stephen: But if you go over the border to Northern Ireland, that's part of the UK, everything is open. People are not really wearing masks.

Stephen: And when Irish people go over the border, there is this weird sense of "Oh, this is wrong", and it's going to actually take us a little bit of time to get used to actually going back to the freedoms that we had that we never realize. I mean, they were freedoms because we to a restaurant and have something to eat.

Michael: We took them for granted.

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. And we've become kind of institutionalized to this idea because - especially a year ago, this time last year - when nobody really knew what Covid was, we just knew that there was this thing hanging out there that could get us at any point.

Stephen: We all changed our habits. We all changed our routines. And it's going to take a little bit of time to get us back to that.

I mean, I have a teenage daughter, she is 14. And I think, she has missed out on a huge amount of stuff: Interacting with friends, being able to go to discos, being able to just meet her friends in the shopping mall and things like that.

I mean, I have a teenage daughter, she is 14. And I think, she has missed out on a huge amount of stuff: I think young people are really going to need a lot more guidance than we would've probably given to 16-/17-year-olds. I think, they're going to have to learn a little bit more the interactivity.

I mean, I have a teenage daughter, she is 14. And I think, she has missed out on a huge amount of stuff: But I also think that people like networkers, strong networkers, people who get their energy. So, if you talk about the Myers Briggs or Jungian Type - the ENs or the E, E rather than the I - I think a lot of them have also become institutionalized. They've kind of gone "Okay, well, I can't meet people" and their energy has gone down, and they've internalized a lot of that. It is going to take a little bit of time for them to get back up.

Some people will click back into it. You might have marketers for example who were really strong marketeers and really engaging and going out to all these network events: They might actually take a little bit of time to get revved up again. Because their whole engine needs to be restarted.

Michael: So, if I'm a manager now I have a team, say, of 10 people: How can I work with that? How can I look for the signs how the different types of people get along in the situation, how they cope?

Michael: Where do I need to pay attention to make sure the team stays healthy, happy and successful?

Stephen: If you know what people were like before Covid. If you have an idea of "Okay, well this person was outgoing" or "This person was process-orientated/detail-orientated" or "This person was always the idea generator."

Stephen: If they've started being a lot less of that - whatever their strengths were - if they're a lot less. So, when we talk about personality, every scale is our day-to-day. We have a number of scales where people have different scores and that's where they are on a day-to-day basis.

Stephen: If you have a temporary change. So, if you're in a moment of high pressure, or if you're in an environment that really pressures you. Let's say you're a very cooperative person, but you start working in a highly competitive organization, you go into a state for the temporary time that you're in that organization.

Stephen: But the longer you spend in that state, the more that becomes your personality. So, the more you move along that scale.

Stephen: With Covid, if we have people who are really outgoing and they're starting to get really stir crazy for the first month when they can't meet people. But then the next month, they start to get less stir crazy and in the next month less stir crazy.

Stephen: They're spending so much time in that state that their habits and their personality, their behavior is starting to change.

So really what we want to see is: Where were people coming into the pandemic? Where were people a year and a half ago when we were having normal conversations?

Where are they now and really, how is their energy? Because if they're in this new stage and they're still upbeat and energetic, then okay: Maybe they can find different ways. And you might find that they serve different roles now in the organization. They might attack their work in a different way, which might be fine for you.

Where are they now and really, how is their energy? Because if they're in this new stage and they're still upbeat and energetic, then okay: But if need to get them back to where they were, we need to have conversations about how they dealt with the pandemic, how they're feeling about it and what are the routines that we can offer them.

Whether we can say: "Okay, you know what? Let's send you on a junk at first. Before we send you out to some big networking thing, where you're going to be bringing in business. Let's just send you to a conference that doesn't matter. Just get back into the rhythm of it." Or send ourselves to the conference.

Michael: Funny story: I was on an airplane last week for the first time in one year.

Stephen: What's that? Oh, I remember them.

Michael: Exactly, and I used to be on them all the time. I was flying around, I was traveling 150 days a year. And I went to the airport with apprehensive feelings. You know, I had mastered the art of air travel.

Michael: I was one of those super-efficient guys with the small suitcase and everything in gear and I knew all the shortcuts.

Stephen: Did you use to get angry at the people who had water or something in their bag or took to too long to take their (unint).

Michael: No, not anymore.

Stephen: I did. I hated those people. I was all the time "Did you NOT read the signs? Is this your first time on a plane?"

Michael: Well, I used to get angry and then I became a professional coach and I started to learn to deal with my own triggers and now I claim that I don't get angry anymore, but we'll talk about the truth later.

Michael: So, I was apprehensive going to the airport and going through it all. And I did forget a few things. There was stuff "Oh, god, I forgot to pack this and that. I didn't bring the power adapter." Stuff that would have never happened.

Michael: I had this experience of doing something again that I was really good at and making mistakes. I wasn't on the same level.

What you're saying is then we're going to get a lot more of that when everybody goes back. And by the way: What is "back"?

Stephen: When we go to whatever we get to. I mean, when I say "back", I really mean back to the freedoms. Not necessarily the way that we did them.

Stephen: When I talk about personally, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not smart enough to be a psychologist. I'm just able to talk about stuff. And from a completely lay point of view, from a non-academic point of view, our personality is simply a collection of our predictable behaviors.

Stephen: If we say that somebody behaves in a certain way, that's their personality.

And again, from a very basic point of view: Out personalities are made from our beliefs, our habits and our perspectives.

And again, from a very basic point of view: So, we can change those 3 things which changes our behavior, which changes our personality. So, the habits are the really important one.

And again, from a very basic point of view: You mentioned there you forgot the habits of this. Your personality is not a frequent flyer at the mount. "What's the routine and what's that? Oh god, I forgot that thing!"

And again, from a very basic point of view: And then you start to feel "Jesus, am I forgetting everything? What' going on?" But it's just that routine has gotten broken. Those triggers and those habit loops have gotten broken.

Michael: So, where's it all going to go? What's the ideal outcome of this for you?

Michael: What's the remote leadership future?

Stephen: We moved office in the middle of the pandemic. Because the office was in my family home, and we've decided that we're going to split to 2 and so we moved the office.

Stephen: And we had a big conversation about this. Because I firmly believe that except for 1 or 2 elements of our business where we provide books and tests, that we actually distribute for a couple of distributors, we don't need to be in the office 5 days a week.

Stephen: The whole staff are coming in today, we're doing a training thing today on our new software. And I wanted everyone to come and we're going to go try to go for lunch or something like that just to see.

Stephen: But for me it doesn't make sense to have people 9-5 in the office all the time. Now, that's a mindset shift from looking at the inputs to looking at the outputs. And I think it's really important for companies.

Stephen: And we were able to do that years ago. What we need is for the students to accomplish this. Your style and your style are going to be very different, but they need to be able to discuss the past perfect. They need to be able to discuss an idea, things like this.

Stephen: So, we had objectives. And the teachers all worked towards that.

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking:

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking: "You need to make 100 calls a day."

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking: "Why do I need to make 100 calls a day?"

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking: "Well, you need to do like 10 sales. So, you need to make 100 calls."

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking: "Why don't I just make 20 good calls and cut work to half?"

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking: "Oh, it doesn't work like that."

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking: "It can, if you let the people who are good at what they're doing, do."

I think I was lucky in that. We always kind of looked at the outcomes as opposed to the inputs. A lot of friends of mine that are tracking: So, I think there's an element of that, allowing people to actually bring their own strengths to it and just looking after the outcomes.

Michael: I love that concept of looking at the output rather than the input.

Michael: Nice way to summarize it. Thanks for that.

Christian: Stephen, when you talked about leading your school from Spain, you said it's important to make it personal via Zoom.

Christian: And now you said people are different, they are in one sense changing personality types over the time.

Christian: So, how do you manage to make it personal as a leader from Spain to anywhere in the world?

Stephen: When I was doing the weekly calls when I was in Spain, that was less about making it personal because we had these interactions through the week.

Stephen: Now, in the pandemic is when I think I was trying to make it a lot more personal and discussing like the Netflix shows or how people's families were getting on and trying to engage that. The same as you would at the water cooler.

Stephen: I've had a lot of conversations with fellow trainers and coaches, people in EO who do some of the training. We've moved everything online.

Stephen: And one of the things that we really said that we miss is the little conversations, even if it's just getting a coffee at the same time or walking to the elevator at the end of the day and that little connection, that little switch. Because we jump onto a call, we go "Right, here's the agenda what we're going to do" - "Okay, thanks everybody. See you next week."

Stephen: And we don't have those serendipitous little moments where we're talking about "Did you see that 'Tiger King' or the 'Star Wars series'?"

Stephen: And having that little connection reminds us that we're all actually people. We're not 2D-robots that are talking to each other. We're here as a group of people trying to accomplish something.

Stephen: So, what is that thing that we're trying to accomplish? What is the ultimate behind the 10/20-year goal? What is even the quarterly goal?

Stephen: Because we're people during this. And yes, we want the best part of people at work, but we also want the best part of people at home. We don't want to just have them burnt out at work and then not having something outside of work.

We want to have that balance. We want them to be fulfilled. So, as their coming-to-work-feeling: "I wanted to be here" and not "I have to be here to support my kid's school" or whatever.

We want to have that balance. We want them to be fulfilled. So, as their coming-to-work-feeling: Having that I think is really, really important. Because I've grown up in family businesses, so there is no delineation between work life and family life because it's all the same.

We want to have that balance. We want them to be fulfilled. So, as their coming-to-work-feeling: I met my wife through work, so I mean there is no blur.

We want to have that balance. We want them to be fulfilled. So, as their coming-to-work-feeling: And for the entrepreneurs that's one thing. But for the employees and for our teammates, I think it's something that we need to make sure that we're actually helping them with.

Christian: On a real tactical level: What's your behavior to improve this "Making it personal?" What do you do to make this happen?

Stephen: So we do the daily huddle only for 15 minutes and it's the update of what's happening during the day. But really, on the Monday and on the Wednesdays, 5/10 minutes of that is "So what happened? What did you do on the weekend? What did you get up to in the weekend? Did you go for a walk? Did you do this?"

And actually sacrificing some of the strategic time because in my head it is like look: If there's something else I need to follow up with somebody, I need to "Okay, Remember: We're working on this today" or "You need to have this done by the end of the day."

And actually sacrificing some of the strategic time because in my head it is like look: I can follow up on that on a quick two-second-call on WhatsApp.

And actually sacrificing some of the strategic time because in my head it is like look: But actually, having the team sharing "Oh, what's the documentary?" - "Oh, I didn't see it" - "Okay, I'll put that on my list". And actually having that shared experience. I found that - and I think my team found that - beneficial to actually sacrifice some of the strategic time and allocate that for a less clinical term, but actually allocating that to team development.

And actually sacrificing some of the strategic time because in my head it is like look: And I think people appreciated that.

Christian: Thank you. Okay, so, in your new business what you learned about remote leadership and about yourself?

Christian: What will you do differently in the future?

Stephen: Well actually one of the things we spent a lot of time on: We developed a new program for career guidance for high school students. And we developed that with everybody working from home.

Stephen: We were on shared Google Docs, we had impromptu calls and our daily huddles. We had meetings on a regular basis to make sure that we all knew what we were looking at and what was being done. And then I was working with the developers.

Stephen: So, once we all finished on the core part, I was working with developers for about 6 months in total, to make sure that the user journey was right and all the stuff that needed to be done was done.

Stephen: And then I made sure that I was the main point of contact for any questions from any of our clients.

Stephen: I was doing demo calls and text support calls all the time for about 6 weeks once we went live.

Stephen: And once I had it nailed down, because then I wanted to see what the interface was like to get the developers to tweak this or change that flow, so it's more user-friendly, so it's less calls about that.

Stephen: And now today that's when I'm training all the staff how they can all now do this. So, we can all do the tech support, and we can all do the onboarding for the clients.

Stephen: But they don't have to be here. They're here because I want to connect with everybody again.

Stephen: But they don't have to be here to actually be doing that. So, they can be working from home, they can be in a different place.

Stephen: I have one colleague who's from Croatia. She's flying home, she has to quarantine for 10 days, when she gets home, even with negative PCR. And she did this last year as well to see her family.

Stephen: So, we just said "Okay, well, look you're going to be working from home, whether that's Dublin or Croatia, doesn't bother me. So, fly home, get a midweek ticket because it'll be cheaper."

Stephen: That was my thinking. There's nobody on flight, so all the flights were cheap.

Stephen: So, "Go, work from home, work from the hotel or wherever you are, we can do the Zoom calls and we do everything and then have your holiday for 2 weeks. And then when you come back and you need to quarantine for a week, you word from home."

Stephen: It doesn't really bother where stuff is done from. Except when we need to ship stuff. And that's the only reason that we bought the office. It's to have the distribution center, but also we have a training room upstairs, so we can do in person training for Irish people.

Stephen: But we've laid it out in such a way. So, I know, Michael, I took a huge inspiration from your desk setup when you were studying all of this.

Stephen: So, I have the lights, the second screen. You're going to show me something there?

Stephen: So, the lights and second screen. I don't have multi camera because I'm really just doing prescribed training programs at the moment. But the idea is to actually build up our own series of training programs on career guidance, on interview skills, on things like this, to be able to help people improve their lot.

Stephen: That room, the main reason we got it, it's basically an open space. So, we can put what we want in it. And they've built it in a way that it can be training room and within 20 minutes it can be a studio.

Stephen: I can put a couple tripods and platforms and do it.

Michael: Cool. Hey, Stephen, I'm still intrigued by something that you said a little earlier. It was this idea of:

Michael: When the environment changes around us, then slowly but surely, we adapt to that and we change so that we can fit in and succeed and deal with that.

I'm phrasing. I think that's roughly what it was. The question I have is this - it's 2 questions packaged into one - so, the question is:

I'm phrasing. I think that's roughly what it was. The question I have is this - it's 2 questions packaged into one - so, the question is: How was that for you personally? How did you change? And what was your e-learning about yourself through all of these changes over the past year and a half?

Stephen: Interesting question. About a month and a half into the pandemic, we have a big dog, which gave us the excuse to make sure that we all as a family got out of the house for an hour once a day, to go for a big, long walk, which was really beneficial.

There were some people that were getting trapped in that spiral. And I know myself: If i didn't have the dog looking at me going "I'm going to pee on the carpet if you don't bring me out." So, I had to bring him out.

There were some people that were getting trapped in that spiral. And I know myself: But I know myself that I was starting to get into that bit of a spiral because I'm such an extrovert. I love being around people, I love finding out about different things, I like talking to people. We've met in various corners of the world at different events for a long time.

Michael: Or with hundreds of people around us.

Stephen: Yes. And again, as I said, remember at the beginning? When we all had this fear of "There's something out there, it's everywhere, it's on the roads, you can't touch it." There was just this unknown entity or fear like a classic horror movie or thriller movie.

And I remember one day: We stopped, the dog was playing with another dog, and we started talking to the owners of the other dog. And my wife said to me "We're only talking for about 10/15 minutes" and I was in my whole "So, what you do? What do you normally do?" And this and that and chat to them.

And I remember one day: And my wife said, "My god, your mood has changed so much, just because you met other people."

And I remember one day: So, one of the things that I found is that I really needed to connect to people. I really needed to be able to have these - even if it's 2D and even if it's just reaching out and chatting with people on an informal basis - I needed that.

And I remember one day: But at the same time I found I'm a little bit more process-orientated now. Because my personally - not process-driven at all in any way, shape or form.

And I remember one day: Every single number 2 that I've ever had has to be process driven. Otherwise, whatever we're working on will be on fire. Literally and figuratively.

And I remember one day: Because process is not my thing.

And I remember one day: But I've actually found through this, because I'm not as distracted by going and talking to people. I can actually go "Okay, I need to do this, I need to do this."

And I remember one day: So, I don't know if this is a video or if the podcast is a video or not. But this is a new flowchart. I'm holding up a printout of a flowchart which I would never have done before.

Michael: So, if you're listening, Stephen is holding up something that looks very structured, very organized, it's color-coded, it looks like a flowchart, it looks very technical. Impressive.

Stephen: Yeah, and it only took me about 6 months. No, I'm kidding.

Stephen: But it's figuring out. And there is a part of me that really thinks the dealing with the developers as well, because it had to be quite technical and going through every step by step.

Stephen: If I had tried to do that a year ago, it probably would've been a hot mess.

Stephen: Whereas now after a year of actually going "Okay, I can work on this and I can follow this process. And I can lay out this process and coming back to it, coming back to it, coming back to it", it was a much easier time for me and probably the developers.

Stephen: I would have driven them insane.

Michael: Can I take learning out of that in the sense of "People can change"?

Stephen: Absolutely! And this is what we talk about.

So, when I do personality profiling workshops, this is it:

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors:

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors: • It's changing your beliefs,

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors: • changing your habits or

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors: • changing your perspectives.

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors: Those 3 things are hard. There was an evolutionary psychological reason why those things are good for us. And why as human beings, we need them.

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors: Biases are another thing. We all have biases, we have to. It's how our brains work.

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors: But not questioning those biases is what gets us into trouble.

Your personality is just your predictable behaviors. And if you change your behaviors, you change your personality. And by changing the behaviors: So, when we take those biases and we need to figure out how we're looking at the world, then we can take our perspective, we can change our habits.

The example that I use: Let's say you go to a networking event, and you don't know anybody. If you walk into the room, you look around, you don't know anybody. You subconsciously take a step back. Then you take another step back and you end up at the wall. And then you take out your phone.

The example that I use: And then you start looking at your phone which puts a barrier between you and the people.

And then you think: "You know what? They're not very friendly here. I'm going to go."

And then you think: If you go to your next networking event and instead of taking a step back, you force yourself to change your habit loop. The trigger is the same, but you change your habit loop, and you step forward, and you start talking to people.

And then you think: The first 5 or 6 times you do that, you will feel like an idiot. You will feel completely awkward. You won't know what to say and you'll stumble, and you'll feel like a fool.

And then you think: But if you do it more than 5 or 6 times, it'll start to become more natural, it'll start to become better.

And then you think: And then you'll start to go to networking events, start talk to people, start being more confident.

And if somebody sees you then a year later, they will say: "He's an extrovert, not an introvert."

Michael: Fantastic. You know what's dawning on me just now? I can do the same thing remote.

Michael: So, if I'm in a Zoom call with 50 people, and I don't know them and I'm with my back against the wall, and I decide "I'm going to get out of that Zoom call", I could just chat to somebody.

Michael: Be it on a chat channel or go in a Breakout Room or just talk out in the open in front of 50 people.

Michael: It's just one of those things, isn't it?

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. And it's a decision that we make.

Stephen: Or you could do what I do, which is just say something controversial and let people start a conversation.

Michael: Christian loves that, he's smiling.

Christian: Yeah, that's how I make Zoom calls enjoyable, just by chatting.

Stephen: Absolutely!

Christian: Yeah, thank you very much, Stephen. So, as a present for you for having talked to us I have this magic wand here in my hand.

Christian: And I swing this magic wand and then you can send a message to all the leaders out there.

Christian: What would that message be?

Stephen: What would that message? Knowing your personality, spend some time getting to know your personality.

Stephen: What are your strengths? What are your areas that you're not as strong in?

Stephen: And if you want to develop them, develop them. If you don't, hire somebody that does what you can't.

Stephen: Because knowing who you are is the best way of developing yourself, because you know where you're starting from.

Michael: Word.

Christian: Thank you very much, Stephen.

Michael: Love it. Thank you!

Stephen: Guys, a pleasure, thank you so much for having me honest. Delightful to talk to you.

Christian: Have a nice day. See you soon! Hopefully in person.

Stephen: Tschüss.

Michael: At the next event with hundreds of people around us and we'll be chatting and moving forward.

Stephen: Absolutely. On a plane.

Michael: See you there.

Stephen: Bye.